Sunday, May 18, 2008

TESLA - My Own Thoughts About Minnu Skin Copy


(photo comparisons of Minnu's Gen 4 Demo Skin with Danae's original Renderosity Skin)

I have spoken to various renowned designers, whom I shall keep anonymous, about this whole issue; unfortunately, they have decided to remain silent for fear of the consequences of speaking out on the matter. So, I feel that it is my duty as a creator of some influence and notoriety in SL to speak about Minnu using the work of Renderosity artist, Danae Kotsi, to make her new Gen 4 skin for her MMS store on her Glam World sim. Further information can be found HERE.

As a creator/ designer, I pride myself on having a discerning eye, and upon looking at the image comparison proofs provided by the highly regarded Renderosity artist, Danae Kotsi, I can clearly see that Minnu Palen has used elements of Danae's work in her own. Using another person's work is different from using a photosource because it's a shortcut from actually doing alot of the hard work.

I am not going to accuse Minnu of being a thief; she may have naively misunderstood the terms of usage in the licensing agreement: my main issue is really the question of her behaviour, pertaining to morality and ethics. At the end of the day, the content creators of SL are just ordinary people; we're individuals who play with prims and textures, not big corporations like Microsoft.

We are artists, and there is an unspoken code of ethics which we share within the creative community; it is not stated in any written book of law or agreement, it is accepted that we respect one another's work, as we expect others to respect our own. Because as soon as we overstep the mark and invade another person's expression, that's not creative: it's destructive.

I have had my fair share of copycats in SL, I see other 'content providers' using elements of my work in their own; just recently, a store was discovered putting their own textures and 'extras' over my own sculptie forms. In order for the designs to meet my standards, I spend hours tweaking the vertices of the sculptie mesh and creating the texture; even so, not all my meshes are perfect the first time, so you never ever get to see the totality of my work in the rejected sculpties. It's the same in Danae's case, no doubt she labored over several versions of her Manhattan skin to end up with the perfect one... It's like pushing a heavy boulder up a steep hill, and then someone else pushing it for the last two steps to the top and claiming all the glory for it.

Understand that a creator's work is like their child. They spend countless hours nurturing that child, watching it grow, and having pride in their offspring. If someone were to take that child and butcher them into pieces and make a Frankenstein monster from it, how do you think that would make the original creator feel? Once again, this is not about laws etc... It is about respect for another creator; the kind of respect that can only be fully understood when one has worked just as hard to create an original piece.

Once again, we are not monsters, we are not corporations who find loopholes in the law to increase their profit, but we are creative individuals who want to bring beauty into the world and share it with others, and it is for this reason that we respect one another.

Minnu may have gotten away with copying and disrespecting the work of a talented creator, but as a member of the creative community, she overstepped the mark. I can never view someone with such a corporate mentality as an artist. There are many of us who create for the pure pleasure of expression, the indulgence and celebration of creativity. Her kind of behaviour should not belong to SL.

I know that I'll probably be attacked for what I have said on this matter, then be it; I cannot idly sit by and watch an injustice done to a creative colleague. Hopefully, I speak for all those who prefer to remain silent. Apathy does not a good world make.

Thanks for listening,

Tes

109 comments:

another designer said...

... thank you.

Bibs Burns said...

this much is true

Tuli Asturias said...

"Hopefully, I speak for all those who prefer to remain silent."
Yes I think you do. This is an aspect of the whole thing that is hardly spoken of.
Speaking your mind is a dangerous thing these days. *gives you some kevlar armor*

Balerion said...

I read your remarks with great interest, Tesla. I appreciate the opportunity. That said, I do have some quibbles.

First and foremost, you seem to suppose that Minnu used Ms. Kotsi's Manhattan package in a deliberately underhanded way due to the terms of the license or some other legal technicality.

Is it not possible that Minnu well and truly believed her use was entirely legally above board, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, no need for interpreting vague words or looking at loopholes in court? And that she's only now learned that it wasn't?

If her belief proves mistaken, she'll suffer whatever consequences, but it won't change the fact that she may well have legitimately believed it was a proper use of the material. Possibly you personally know Minnu and can be a better judge than those who, like me, don't know her. Do you have any insights in this regard, or are you just speculating?


As to the the idea of reusing someone else's work as being verboten for an artist....

Shakespeare's King Lear was based on an earlier play; so too, perhaps, was his Hamlet. The modern artist Jeff Koons has been taken to court (and sometimes won, and sometimes lost) for appropriating the work of others and incorporating them into his paintings. So, too, did Andy Warhol.

Incorporating the works of others into your own work is nothing new. And artists simply copying outright, from either themselves or others, isn't really new either. No one can really say these people weren't actually artists, even if some particular production of theirs was not really an example of actual artisty. To believe a person is not an "artist" because of a single one of their creations not being a "celebration of creativity" seems awfully absolutist and short-sighted.

I don't know Minnu at all. I have no idea whether anything she's made in SL is actually largely a product of her own creative talents and skills. I would tend to assume so, however, until someone can show otherwise, and until that time in my own book I'd consider her as much an artist as I consider any designer of skins, clothing, shoes, etc. an artist.

Balerion said...

Meh. Forgot to sign with my SL name: Ran Garrigus.

tya said...

Well said

elysium eilde said...

Balerion:
Koons and Warhol appropriated the works of others in order to make a statement about the culture those things came from, not just to copy them silently and pass the originals (or slight modifications, of repurposed files) off as their own.

For example, when Warhol used a black and white printed image of Marilyn Monroe, he reinterpreted the image and silk screened it using splotchy harsh colors. This was a STATEMENT about how society (particularly in America) takes something innocent and pure and turns it into something garish, bright and commercial for the purposes of selling it.

Taking a work and reinterpreting it to have an entirely new meaning? Yes, THAT is art. Purely making a slightly adjusted copy and claiming the original concept and work as your own is not.

Besides, Warhol wouldn't have tried to claim that he was the original designer of the Campbell's Soup can, only to confess when the original artist could prove him wrong...

(also Bale, this post isn't about what is legally right or wrong that has yet to be seen, it's about the fact that the Minnu camp was less that forthcoming about the origins of the work.)

Sofia Gray said...

I respect you much more, Tesla, for being able to speak your mind that I respect those who have not.

As someone who has done a bit of "creating" of my own in Second Life in the past - more recently my work/drama with avatar shapes - I understand completely when you say that one can lay all the groundwork and then have another take it and extra 2 steps and claim it as their own unjustly.

I personally have chosen not to weigh in on this situation because I don't feel that it's always as 2 dimensional as one side or the other may present it. For centuries art had grown through the "appropriation" of one's work into the next - and I think that is a perspective that can be skewed in any which way, unfortunately.

With all that being said, I beleive that your willingness to take a stand in any one way or another speaks very highly of your character, and I find that to be a very admirable quality.

- Sofia Gray

Anonymous said...

"Is it not possible that Minnu well and truly believed her use was entirely legally above board, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, no need for interpreting vague words or looking at loopholes in court? And that she's only now learned that it wasn't?"

While it remains unproven, it would only take initial correspondence from Ms Kotsi to show Minnu denied using her work, stating she pulled her sources from google, porn and other places. If she did not use the package in a deliberate and underhanded way, why not immediately state otherwise?

If she assumed it was totally legal and above board, why does she have people of her employ jumping into every blog stating the skins are nothing alike, accusing Ms Kotsi of dishonesty, stating she based them off herself or earlier skin series. If it were truly the case, that she used the skins in good faith, why not take the high road, admit it, apologize, remove them and move on.

If you were such a talented content creator, willing to put in "hours and hours of work in various applications" to make a perfect skin, why not create your own from scratch and better yet, remove the skin in question and make an original series.

Just things to consider when toying with the idea that Minnu innocently, naively and properly used a material that was created by someone else. Any SL creator would know this was a major shortcut in the road to creating a skin range.

Anonymous said...

Sofia, so unusual for you not to have an opinion on one creator infringing on another. You are often the front runner in pointing out (often unfairly and without basis) and taking sides on such matters. Perhaps in this instance, it is because your face is a prominent store feature.

yet another designer said...

Thank you, Tesla, for your words.

Sofia Gray said...

I dont wish for this to turn into an argument, "Anonymous" - but just to adress what you have said.

I never said that I don't have an opinion. That would be fairly assinine, considering I always have an opinion. I merely have explained why I have elected not state my opinion (on my blog, or elsewhere) - I dont think that the situation is as 2 dimensional or black and white as people want to make it out to be.

And furthermore, I dont think the fact that my image is hanging in the store is really any indication of how I feel. It was a photo that I was asked to model for, and was paid for. I don't shop around the Renderosity sites looking for skin rip offs, though I dont think it's ever been a secret that a number of skin creators on the grid have used Renderosity and sites like it for referencing their skins. Prior to the image being taken, I had never been given a reason to not trust Minnu - so for it to be held "against" me now in such a way is fairly rediculous, no?

Sign your name next time, too.

- Sofia Gray

Anonymous said...

please let's not reopen the discussion here from shopping cart disco. I see people starting that whole commentrange here again. you have allready spoken on shoppingcartdisco, so no need to repeat your opinion on the matter here again. What I see Tesla doing here is stating something for her fellow creators, and I appreciate that a lot, for I truly believe most of them don't dare to speak up, which I respect, since it may have big consequences for them, but Tesla did. I know people don't dare talking about this and Tesla did that for them.so Tes you dida heck of a job

SunShine said...

Tesla:

Very well written with thought and honesty. Thank you for your bravery and coming forth knowing full well the possible ramifications.

*stands back and admires Tesla*

---SunShine Kukulcan

Mallory Cowen said...

Sofia,
Who are these skin creators who source from renderosity? Everyone I know, and have talked to, use 3d.sk or their own personal photos etc. Just curious who these people might be?

Just a Resident said...

For me it's never been about whether or not it was legal, but something somewhat bigger which you describe perfectly.

Personally, I don't think the respect I have for content creators in SL is just because they find a way to adapt someone else's work. I respect them for what I believe to be talent, creativity, hardwork and originality.

Anonymous said...

Finally...thank you for standing up..and breaking the silence

Balerion said...

Anonymous,

Not being privy to any conversations between Ms. Kotsi and Minnu, and not seeing Minnu's statements in private to anyone concerning this matter, I would not leap to any assumptions whatsoever regarding what Minnu believed or did not believe regarding her alleged usage of the skin.

Further, if in the course of initial panic she made false or inaccurate statements, well ... that's one thing,but it does not necessarily mean that at the time that she allegedly used the textures she didn't believe it was okay. It could simply mean that she made the unwise decision to try and dodge potential trouble by doing something ethically questionable. Or, who knows, maybe some of her claims are true, but not necessarily contradictory to Ms. Kotsi's claims.

Basically, we don't know. Tesla or any other creator who suggests absolute facts of the matter of Minnu's initial beliefs and intentions must either be greatly privileged in receiving direct information from Minnu and Ms. Kotsi, or they're speculating just like everyone else.

I think Tesla is at least right in sort of trying to separate the legal matter from the moral/ethical matter. I think it's entirely possible that Minnu has done or said a number of ethically questionable things from the time Ms. Kotsi contacted her. This does not necessarily reflect on her initial thoughts, beliefs, or legal rights at the time she first allegedly acquired the textures, however.

Certainly, it's suggestive. But it's not proof.

Tesla Miles said...

Balerion, you must be reading a different blog entry to the one I posted because I never suggested any absolute facts. All I know is that Minnu used the work of Danae Kotsi to create her Gen 4 skins - she never refuted this, and Danae is not happy about it, yet Minnu refuses to do anything about it except continue to sell the questionable Gen 4 skins. Is that respect?

Anonymous said...

Thank you Tes! Finally the silence is broken... I agree with you. For that mather... If this concerned any other designer, they would have been "destroyed" by the SL media and public. So, thank you for speaking up for your fellow designers ;)

Anonymous said...

Brave words Tesla.
I think lot of designers agree with you, if the skin desginers don't speak I suppose is cos lot of people will say is just envy of Minnu and things like this.

Iris Seale said...

Good on you, Tesla. I thought the designer silence was a bit odd, but it's nice to see that other people see the issue as I do. Thanks for having the guts to speak your mind.

Anonymous said...

Whether or not Minnu knew that what she was doing was illegal, I don't know, but I have to believe she knew it was unethical, that's just commone sense.
I won't judge her morals, that's not my place, but I will say what I can judge is her and her camps responses to all of this, which I find to be DEPLORABLE.
That is what is going to stay in my memory for a long time.

Thank you Tesla, for coming forward with such honesty.

Annyka Bekkers said...

Well said, Tesla. Thank you.

Balerion said...

Tesla,

I read your post quite closely. A large part of your argument is predicated on Minnu doing what she did with a belief that it was underhanded, requiring a loophole or some such to be legitimate. We don't know this. We aren't party to whatever official correspondence she's had with Ms. Kotsi's and her representation, and we don't really know what she thought at the time that she allegedly acquired the textures. Whatever came afterwards (hearsay concerning Minnu's claims, for example, from bloggers, erstwhile employees, or even second-hand reports from Ms. Kotsi herself) may be accurate and relevant, but we don't actually know that it is.

It's true that now she's aware Ms. Kotsi does not agree that it was legitimate. But she's invested time, money, and effort in her Generation 4 skins. Maybe not as much as she should have, we don't know -- but it's there.

If she legitimately believed she had the right based on what she purchased, that she went and put time, money, and effort into creating this product pursuant to this belief, I can see why it might go to court.

They both have time and money invested in their products. You can say, "Respect the artist", but I think one can just as well say, "Respect the consumer". Both are equally valid.

Personally, in either of their shoes, I'd seek to avoid going to court and would attempt to settle things reasonable. Ms. Kotsi could allow as how it might be that the license she sold her goods under was not as clear or thorough as it ought to be, Minnu could accept that Ms. Kotsi did not wish the Manhattan package to be used that way under the given terms, and they work out some reasonable arrangement: an extra licensing fee, a royalty per sale, a cessation of selling the skin after Minnu has sufficient time to create (or buy, or out source, or whatever the case may be) a new one, or something along these lines.

Both sides might then come out with a reasonably pleasing situation, dodging a great deal of stress and the expenditure of thousands of dollars in litigation. Who would have been "right" or who would have been "wrong"? Short of a settlement requiring a letter of apology or an admission of wrong doing, it would be a moot point.

Ultimately, it comes back to intentions. We don't know whether Minnu had nefarious, ethically-questionable motives when sheallegedly made use of the texture. Short of an admission from Minnu, or clear-cut evidence, we will never really know.

Ran Garrigus

queenkellee said...

Thank you Tesla, for speaking out. <3

Lyanis Sin said...

belerion,

A person who copies stuff from other artists invest time and money in it.

A person who copies is not "Respecting the artist" and neither they are "Respecting the consumer".

A person who defends someone who copies is as bad as the person who copied it.

Belerion, tell us your true motive for defending Minnu because so far all you have said is bullshit. You repeat yourself in every paragraph. Long ass posts yours are, just as Ari Blackthorne.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Tesla for speaking up. I was too surprised at the deafening silence from the designer community. Those who work for her and/or have stores on her sim I would expect that from. A rent-free store is a hard thing to turn away from.

Anonymous said...

i'm posting anon. due to legal reasons...

Minnu has told many ppl her skins took her 45 minutes to make.

her statement said hours...

if this does go to court... i'm sure all these statements shared in im's or open chat will be put before the court...

it doesn't add up. i'm not accusing anyone of anything, but her statement was not in line with what has been publicly said.

and even the fact these new skins were released went against her statement of "we will not release new skins until...."

a company has to stand by what it says... or it looks bad no matter what.

signed,

just another designer

Tillie Ariantho said...

I wonder why things should go to court all the time. This is another US thingy, is it?

Minnu should accept the fact that she might have misunderstand the license, and the original creator should accept that someone is using her work elsewhere. A trade can be made, some money being handed over... fixed sum or a percentage per sold skin.

Why carry that to court? Facts are there. Every legal fight only makes it more expensive and only creates unhappiness on all sides.

Make a contract, including upcoming skins and make this a successful business.

Tillie Ariantho said...

Anonymous > "I was too surprised at the deafening silence from the designer community."

I am not surprised at all. No one dares to speak because people will have a look at his/her products then too. And I am QUITE SURE that they will find LOTS MORE ripped skins/textures/whatever elsewhere.

And some other people just dont care about drama thingies.

Everything here is going crazy all the time, I wonder why. Seems people try to fight until one of the two sides is lying on the floor, bleeding. Why not try to find a solution that is best for all sides? And most kicks and hits are not coming from the two involved parties, but from the watching community. GET YOUR HANDS OUT THERE, let them find a solution themselves, thank you!

Anonymous said...

If Minnu had just been another two-bit skin designer making only enough to cover her tier do you think Danae would have bothered raising this much of a stink over everything and wanting compensation? I'm just saying I think greed is working on both sides of the coin here. Ms. Kotsi would have come out looking far better if she hadn't used a drama vehicle for her purposes.

Tillie Ariantho said...

True. If I had been here i would have done it like that: "I see you are copying my skins illegally... you can have drama now with a legal act, or we find a solution and keep this covered and you continue with your successful business. With me as your partner." ...

Jen Runo said...

I've caught a couple of discussions about this topic and I must say that your opinion and stance make sense.

I myself dabble with making little things in SL, but nothing compares to the work I've done in RL. Some of which is photo manipulation. And when you are familiar with photo manipulation you know those intricate details to look for.

So I agree with you. Minnu's skins do appear to be recreations of the other artists work.

Did she know what she was doing was wrong? Who knows.

Will she talk about it honestly? No clue.

Sure wish she would though.

SySy Chapman said...

Well i threw in my two cents on the matter on that other blog of tenshi, but i applaud you Tesla for being brave enough to voice your opinion :) I too do not know what the absolute facts are, and i'm always very hesitant and carefull of blaming someone.
HOWEVER, the feeling i get from this all, is absolutely not good. To me, i respect and admire hardworking designers who are creative and original, and on the subject of being PASSIONATE about what they do. Thats one which weighs in very heavy for me. Yes we all like to sell and make money. absolutely. But i do think it shines off if something is made with passion, instead of the sole purpose of making fast $$. I don't know Minnu, and i don't know the truth behind this whole story.
But yes, this is looking like its a way to earn some fast $$ and that to me isn't what SL should be about either ;)

Anyway BRAVO for speaking your mind, and keep making those awesome shoes of yours :D
<3

Anonymous said...

Yes, I'm scared of Minnu's legal hordes so posting anonymously.

Kudos to you Tesla for having the courage so many lack and speaking proud.

There is a difference between law and ethics, and it's wonderful someone is speaking out on that.

Anonymous said...

Minnu doesn't HAVE legal hordes. It's an act.

Tesla Miles said...

Anonymous said...

"If Minnu had just been another two-bit skin designer making only enough to cover her tier do you think Danae would have bothered raising this much of a stink over everything and wanting compensation? I'm just saying I think greed is working on both sides of the coin here."

Why is Danae suddenly the wrong-doer for complaining about someone using their work?? If someone takes something from you without your permission, is it a crime to ask for it back?
It amazes me how some people can even consider calling someone who just wants their work back as greedy!!
It's shocking how a victim, of an unethical crime, is suddenly made to look like the criminal! Shocking!!

Anonymous said...

@ Ran Garrigus

you speak of responsibilities too the customer. I personally would think that the most responsible thing to do for the customer is to give them a product that was free and clear of controversy. Me as a customer would feel better about the skin I'm in if the creator wasn't under the microscope for having a copied product.

When Minnu pullled ALL of her skins for sale back when there was a controversy of people stealing from her to protect her product it seamed a reasonable action to take at the time to alot of people. Don't you think it would be a reasonable action to take now just to pull ONE skin line thats under question? The other would still be up for sale. I personally would think so also but apparently Minnu wouldnt agree with that as it may hurt her pocket book.

The biggest issues here would have to be of intent and integrity, and in my mind nothing to do with legalities.

I'm going to assume that Minnu's intentions were not malicious when she created the skins from the beginning and when they went out for sale. When the renderosity artist came forward WITH proof of her greivance and Minnu chose to stop what she was doing, from that point on all innocent intentions turned into malicious ones. Why? not due to legalities, because it shows a total lack of respect for the original artist. I dont care one bit about the laws, we all know there are silly or ambiguous laws about nearly everything out there. I'm talking about respect and integrity.

I personally would have had respect for Minnu if she said "I made a mistake everyone, and to correct it im pulling the product off in question out of RESPECT for the original artist"

In my mind seeing as it wouldnt have been a problem to stop selling all of her skins in response to people stealing from her, then I would imagine that it wouldnt have hurt her in the slightest to pull ONE skin line off to protect and RESPECT the original artists wishes.

Just my 2L$ worth

Violaine Villota said...

Thank you Tesla! You are so right, it isn't just a question of whether it was technically legal or not. IF in fact Minnu used the Danae skin to maker her SL version whether it is legal or not, I believe she would have had to at least question whether it was okay. I could understand if it was some small designer completely new to SL, but Minnu has been here long enough to become an icon of sorts with slick marketing and promotion AND a huge campaign against content theft. Wouldn't a designer so intent on upholding creator's rights have wondered, AT ALL, about using another creator's skin regardless that it wasn't specifically for SL?
I agree that it does still take time and effort to make skins, photo sourcing or not, but... if you wanted to keep your image of a couture cutting edge designer, why would you want to be known as getting the bulk of your product from someone else's work? And why is it so taboo to even think that THE Minnu might have done something that's not all that respectable, and more importantly, be willing to speak your opinions out loud?
Okay maybe this is too long already, but I was just so glad you spoke up Tesla, as I was also wondering what in the world all the other designers thought about this. This might be a bad move on my part, I don't know, I'm still sort of new here as a designer, but I really believe it needs to be acknowledged.

Anonymous said...

Tesla: My opinion stands that Danae does not look good - either being used by Tenshi for her own agenda or using Tenshi to ruin the person who used her work. She immediately brought up legal action & compensation to someone she did not know and used that someone to cause drama, and to me that speaks volumes about her character, not her integrity as a designer, victim or not. She is definitely no martyr. Had she pursued this through her lawyers I would have a different opinion of her entirely.

Violaine Villota said...

From "Anonymous":
to Tesla:" My opinion stands that Danae does not look good - either being used by Tenshi for her own agenda or using Tenshi to ruin the person who used her work. She immediately brought up legal action & compensation to someone she did not know and used that someone to cause drama, and to me that speaks volumes about her character, not her integrity as a designer, victim or not. "
~
So, I forget, when Minnu said her skins were stolen didn't she um, cause a big commotion about it? I thought there were protests of some sort, and it sparked a whole campaign, actually... didn't Minnu make posters? You know, about content (cough) theft using these people who 'stole' her skins as an example? Wasn't it? I could totally be wrong, I really could... but that's okay 'cause I can go dig thru the archives of probably half the blogs on the feed to find the whole story to check and see if what I remember is right. If it is, then, hmm. That is an AWFUL lot of drama right there. Oh oh oh! That's not even the most dramatic part! After the content theft campaign got going, did Minnu say she wasn't releasing her new fabulous new line of skins until this content theft issue was resolved? As I remember it was very big news, all the fashionistas, models, and other movers & shakers of SL™ fashion were having panic attacks all over the grid because of this halt on new Minnu skins. Don't you feel, just a little bit, like maybe that could have possibly been done to generate interest, attention and sales? Because it sure did gain a lot of interest. And now I have to wonder, was that person just doing the same thing Minnu was? What was their reaction when they were accused, because I honestly don't remember...

Anonymous said...

Violaine, thanks for your longwinded and totally misplaced rant, but i'm going to have to be a party pooper and cut off your happy recollections now with: I wasn't talking about what I thought about Minnu was I? I'm amused that you felt obliged to bring all that out based on my opinion of Danae. Making the other side look ugly isn't going to change my opinion of the other one bit. Actions speak louder than words and in my opinion hers did all the talking for me.

We're all allowed to have an opinion here and mine is that neither of em are smelling like roses right now. And with that I'm going to bid you a pleasant adieu, happy mudslinging.

Tesla Miles said...

anonymous said...

"Making the other side look ugly isn't going to change my opinion of the other one bit. Actions speak louder than words and in my opinion hers did all the talking for me."

I couldn't agree more! - You're talking about Minnu, right? :DDD

Violaine Villota said...

Honestly, I wasn't trying to make anyone look ugly, I really wasn't sure if I was remembering the past very accurately and was wondering if the info I remembered is true or not. I really thought that maybe I heard something wrong or twisted around and wanted to make sure I wasn't saying something happened when it did in fact, not. Why are you saying that I make Minnu look ugly when I just was trying to confirm her reaction about a similar issue in the past? If I am in the wrong and things weren't how I thought they were than please tell me.
I'm just trying to say, I think Danae's action is fairly normal since it's similar to how Minnu reacted when she thought her skins were being stolen.

Anonymous said...

It applies to both of them, IMO. While I'm saying this, the flaming across the threads is lame, and I have to say I'm never again going to buy from anyone participating in the drama just because of their own malice(coughcough Sinnocent)...stating opinions is one thing, worsening the drama and enjoying it is another.

You made your statement, and while i don't agree that Danae is a saint - I think it'd be naive to think of her in those terms -I can respect that. Maybe she acted in anger. But a week's a long time to be acting like that. I wish they'd just get it over with with their lawyers, in private.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Tesla I have wanted to post on this but as been stated by other designers I was hesitant to do so. Your words were very insightful and hit the nail on the head.

What I have seen from Minnu is a severe disrespect to other artists and their work and this is not the first time.

What I find paticularly distressing about this is she seems to feel she has the right to trample other artist's work and then screams bloody murder when it happens to her. The series Minnu did in Glam magazine on the 7 deadly skins was a total rip off of Marta Dahlig's work, she did not reinterpert this and give it her own interpertation it was an exact replication down to the layout, colors and poses.

Marta is a working artist and this along with her using Danae's work to me she doesnt really care or respect other artists. It is one thing to be inspired by something you see and create your own vision but that is not what is occurring here. Danaea's skins are the 3rd time of her using other's work and passing it off as her own, this shows a pattern and if one looks deeper we may uncover more. As to her associates that continually deny this is occurring and defend her it give me serious doubt as to doing business with them.

It is one thing to say I made a mistake but when you do it 3 times is no longer a mistake but a concious and deliberate choice. It is also not just disrespect to other artists but disrespect to your customers who have believed and supported you.

Anonymous said...

omg, some answers are really incredible, people, imagine were u that some day u see ur work of months stolen or used in ways that u didnt want.

U should have a very cold blood to not scream or do anything.

And was precisely Minnu, well or her friends who talked about lawyers and this stuff, "my counsil don't allow me to speak"

Danae said that was emailing Minnu asking her proofs that dind't use her work and seems Minnu couldn't provide it

For Minnu statement seems that still there isn't any legal action, so what are u talking that Danae is greedy? And I really doubt if Danae can cover the cost cos is not she that is making thousand dollars a month.

But for me Minnu owns an apology not to her customers, owns an apology to all SL designers for dishonest competition.

Really I can't know how should feel all the skin designers of SL that worked not hours like Minnu is saying, days and months to create their skins.

Genna Gray said...

Tesla, I do admire you for speaking your mine. I think some work went into making those skins, but the question remains on how much time and money was indeed spent on them. And does a longer period of time spent on something automatically qualify it as being better than another thing? I highly doubt it took Minnu 45 minutes to create a new skin. It takes me 2-3 hours to work on a single image in photoshop sometimes more if I am really being a perfectionist about it. I do think she took a bit of a shortcut artistically speaking this this generation skin, not exactly sure why. I really don't feel like commenting on the morality issue since I myself am not perfect.

But having looked at the quality of her photography in May's issue, I would still call her talented artist in her own right.

For the person who took issue with the recreation of the 7 Deadly Sins in the magazine, it's not really something new that you see in fashion magazines and other artworks. Just wanted to provide some examples. Thanks.

http://www.catwalkqueen.tv/2008/02/vanity_fairs_ho.html
http://nymag.com/fashion/08/spring/44247/
http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/04/07/2008-04-07_jessica_simpsons_edgy_new_look.html
http://www.popphoto.com/photographynewswire/2210/annie-leibovitz-calle
http://www.designsojourn.com/2008/04/05/iconic-photographs-recreated-in-lego/

Anonymous said...

Tesla, You rock my world. There are many of us no sure how to word how we feel with all of this. In SL, I have deleted anything I own of Minnu's because legal or not it just feels dirty.

Genna, Your examples do not reflect exactly what occurs with the 7 Deadly Sins shoot because the sources you cite give credit to the original artists/photographers. No where in the initial spread is any credit given for the 7 Deadly Sins.
http://issuu.com/caliah/docs/glamslapril08/7

Then again, you are not exactly unbiased in your stance seeing how you have your own section in the magazine.

Anonymous said...

Genna I looked at the links you provided and to me this is quite a different situation. The first couple of spreads were done as "tributes" to very famous artists that was created many decades before.

Additionaly they stated they were tributes and a celebration of those artists, gave appropriate credit to the origin of the work. The Lego representation is what I spoke of taking inspiration and adding your own creativity.

No where in the glam spread did Minnu give credit to Marta and the fact that this is a current work of a working digital artist is very different then paying tribute to an artist work that was created several decades ago.

Those original pieces that were created by Marta where in a magazine not more then 3 mnths before Mnnu used them and were sold to an art book just published.

What Minnu did was not only infringe and take credit by presenting it as her own original work but dilutes the value of Martas work.

Think of it this way you yourself said it takes you many hours to photoshop 1 image. Can you imagine the amount of hours that went into creating each of those images. and not just for web production but for print which has to be much larger much more detailed and tested extensively. I imagine if you had spent that kind of time to produce several art pieces then some one comes along a few months later recreates your work down to all the detail you would be more then a little upset.

Iagree there was some work done by Minnu on the skins but bottom line she used someones work to create the more intricate and difficult parts of the skin again she takes a working artists work. There a ton of legitimate referances that can be used legally she used Danae's skins because it was easier then doing the work herself.

To say oh well something is done all the time does not justify it, there alot of things done "all" the time that are wrong. Trying to make a living as an artist is difficult and I do take offense when I see someone taking someones work an passing it off as their own.

Bex Hathaway said...

May 19, 2008 12:40 PM
Anonymous said...
"Then again, you are not exactly unbiased in your stance seeing how you have your own section in the magazine."

and how do we know that this comment comes from someone who has her own section in the magazine? oh that's right, she signed it with her name.

I'd have to pay a bit more attention to what someone says when they are not hiding behind anonymity.
You'd use your real name if you really feel you have something valid to contribute. Instead of just rhetoric you wouldn't have the nerve to sign your name to.

I'm not sure how I stand on all of this, because I don't know what's truly going on...although I do believe they could use some really good Public Relations right now. The people they have doing it, have imho, done it all wrong.

I commend you Tesla, for coming forward and stating how you feel, using your own name, and I commend others who have done so, whether in the group for or against, it's refreshing to see people true to themselves either way.

Genna Gray said...

I agree with Bex that I'd feel more responsive to Anonymous if I had the courtesy to know to whom I was speaking, but oh well, such is the internet. Anyway, I'd like to ask that you go back and read the article I posted regarding people questioning Annie Liebowitz. Here's a quote from it to demonstrate what I meant:

"Bercovici goes on to write: 'Although there's no mention anywhere in the magazine of the connection, the composition of the two photos is virtually identical, down to the leafy garland on Roberts' head.' "

And I would also say that it might simplify things if there was a credit somewhere in the magazine, I think the Seven Deadly Sins piece is fairly iconic and recognized in the art world, so I don't think at all that Minnu was trying to pass it off as her own idea.

Lastly, I know you don't know me, but I am not the kind of person who is easily biased about things. Yes I work for the magazine, but have little to no contact with Minnu ever. I work with Caliah Lyon, the editor. I have no personal knowledge about Minnu Model Skins. In fact, I only own a couple of them from Generation 2. It's not my skin of choice. I could understand why you might come to that conclusion based on what small about of information you might know of me. Doesn't make it right, though.

anon designer said...

To avoid confusion with the other poster I will post under anon designer. Genna you seem to miss the whole point of that article about annie leibovitz

"Leibovitz is by any account one of her generation's greatest photographers, but as the evidence of her "artful borrowing" piles up, it's hard not to see a little chink in her armor. But is she solely responsible for the blame? Surely the magazine's editors don't believe Leibovitz is inventing these poses out of whole cloth, right?"

And again I point out to you that Minnu copied her spread from a working artist who is currently selling and promoting it. There is a huge difference to taking inspiration from a 1948 painting 60years later and even the fact that its decades later she has recieved criticism an repercussions from it.

Also you seem to have missed the fact that the issue was not printed precisely because of this reason.

http://www.wwd.com/notavailable/archive?target=/issue/article/105673&articleId=105673&articleType=A&industryKw=issue&industryKw2=issuearticle
" ARTFUL BORROWING: Vanity Fair decided against printing its "green" May issue, which is dedicated to environmental matters, on recycled paper — but that doesn't mean there's nothing recycled in it. A spokeswoman for the magazine acknowledged Wednesday that the cover photo of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., George Clooney, Julia Roberts and Al Gore, shot by Annie Leibovitz, was "inspired" by "Ballet Society," a 1948 portrait by Irving Penn of George Balanchine and three collaborators."

I agree that 7 deadly sins is an an Iconic concept and had Minnu created her own concept and ideas to represent that I would have no issue with it.

However taking someone else work and passing it as your own is not ok and no its not ok unless she had contacted the original artist and asked for permission to recreate it if she had recived permission then appropriate credit should of appeared in the magazine.

Overall this leads back to my inital statement is that this is appearing as a pattern of Minnus of using other people work and creativity rather then her own.

anon designer said...

Correction upon further research the vanity fair issue we were discussing was published.

Hypatia Callisto said...

I think everyone else has hashed out the technical parts of how this could have happened a thousand times already. Fact - it's not hard, and the tools abound to easily rip off skins from Poser models with a minimum of effort in a variety of ways.

The thing that concerns me most is that the whole copyright campaign has been made a total charade to prop up a business, and I believe this will have repercussions on honest designers down the line in regards to content theft and trying to get people (say at LL, OpenGrid, etc) to hear their concerns about it. Programmers involved with the infrastructure generally have a poor view of content designers, and this sure hasnt helped. That to me is the saddest thing of all.

Tesla Miles said...

I'd just like to post the words of Danae Kotsi to remind us how this whole incident made her feel:

"As a professional my main income comes from producing and selling works such as the one stolen from me. It takes lots of research, money and many months of hard work to produce just one item and having this stolen by someone and claiming it as their own is very infuriating and insulting."

elysium eilde said...

Since people wanted to discredit these ideas because they were posted anonymously, I am happy to support the ideas with a name...

The comparison links of other "borrowers" do not reflect the same situation. As stated, many of those "copycat" images were tributes to other photographers/artists and that was made obvious in their presentation.(In one case, it was even one publication borrowing from itself) Plus, when you posted that link about Annie Leibovitz did you read the whole article? It mentions how Annie did copy ideas for some of her photos from other images or paintings and that she did NOT attribute her ideas to the original artist, and she caught a lot of flack for that.

I also wanted to comment on the idea that perhaps, thought it would have been better, it wasn't necessary for Minnu to attribute the idea to the 7 Sins artist because the work is known in the art world. Consider this: how many GlamWorld readers are art aficionado?

Genna Gray said...

Sorry, I did read the article. My only point about it is that people were saying Minnu isn't an artist and just copies and pastes everything she does. I thought her recreation of things like the Seven Deadly Sins was well done, and I really don't feel like putting down the Glam magazine readership by assuming they haven't heard of those orginal images. I'm not an artist, but I had seen them before, so why not others?

I really had no intention in going back and forth in comments and taking away from Tesla's post. I had wanted to clarify something and apparently it wasn't as clear as I intended it to be. I was trying to give an example of where a well known and respected artist had recreated an imagine down to every last detail, and yes exactly, she had caught flack for it, but I'm not about to say that Annie Leibowitz is any less an artist in her own right. Perhaps it's best for artists to stay away from this kind of thing, even if it takes still a lot of skill and time to reproduce an image that was painted or drawn by one person as to avoid scrutiny.

My apologies if people thought I was condoning outright stealing of anything. I don't think it's ok to steal, but I saw the magazine spread as an homage, not a ripoff. I could see it being more of a problem if the individual images were being sold for profit with the name, "Envy" by Minnu Palen, but the magazine is being distributed for free. Thanks.

Tesla Miles said...

Hypatia Callisto said...

"The thing that concerns me most is that the whole copyright campaign has been made a total charade to prop up a business, and I believe this will have repercussions on honest designers down the line in regards to content theft and trying to get people (say at LL, OpenGrid, etc) to hear their concerns about it."


I agree Hypatia. I actually have produced posters (available on SLX and my store) for a campaign against copy theft in SL, and a FEW DAYS LATER, there was a campaign started by associates of Minnu which OVERSHADOWED my own honest campaign with their glamorous 'rather go naked' posters.

The most distressing thing, is that unless the people who started this campaign do something, nobody is going to take the copy theft issue very seriously anymore - it's a joke now. I made my copy theft posters with honest intentions to stop the spread of copy theft in SL. It's a real shame when dishonesty, greed, and pride UNDO much of the hardwork that people have put in to build a crime free future in SL. I'm deeply saddened :(

bex hathaway said...

"May 20, 2008 5:06 AM elysium eilde said...
Consider this: how many GlamWorld readers are art aficionado?"


In my time here in SL, I have found that most people who come here are usually extremely creative, intelligent people in search of yet another outlet.

One of my favorite videos to watch is the one where Robbie Dingo brings Vincent Van Goghs "The Starry Night" to life here in SL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVDVggLqsA

If you type Art Gallery in search, you will get over 4,000 responses.

Fashion and Art have been intertwined since the beginning of time. To assume because we love fashion we know nothing about Art is rather ignorant and presumptuous.

Believe it or not, some of us, including the (gasp) "Fashionistas" are interested in true Art, not just pictures of women with large breasts, or pictures of fairies.

@Tesla,
The fact that you have come forward with this post, tells us alot about your honesty. I think people will support you in whatever you "bring to the table" so to speak.

Keep up the good work, we need designers like you to speak up.

Annyka Bekkers said...

"Believe it or not, some of us, including the (gasp) "Fashionistas" are interested in true Art, not just pictures of women with large breasts, or pictures of fairies."

That made me laugh, since Marta Dahlig is known for her pictures of fairies.

bex hathaway said...

Maybe I was misunderstood, I never said fairies couldn't be Art, key words there being "not just" since who doesn't love breasts and fairies once in awhile? :)~

The point I'm trying to make is, we can appreciate Art in many forms, one of them being fashion.

I find, to say the readers of GLAM don't, is short sighted.

Annyka Bekkers said...

I don't think she was saying that Glamworld readers arent cultured. I think her point was more that Marta Dahlig is kind of obscure, which she is, outside of digital fantasy art tutorial communities like DeviantArt and CGTalk. It just so happens that those communities tend to overlap with the SL community since there are alot of shared interests, but she is not exactly a "Famous Arteest."

Miabella said...

Why/ when has this become a debate over using rl art in sl? For what purpose is it to bring up the magazine work? I'm so fed up with reading (yes I know- stop reading then) over and over these attempts to drag people thru the mud. (i.e. Minnu's employs coming onto these posts to defend her only for payment/ gain)
Real story- Minnu has NEVER asked a single one of us to take her side. She hasn't threatened anything if we disagree or don't support. We are not being paid to post anything.
The magazine work (like the referred 7 sins spread) was never claimed to be original art- like MANY MANY MANY other pictures that come from SL (and I'm reading comments from Ely, & Annyka who both have done this too- so watch throwing stones) It is VERY hard to have poses made from someone else and tell them how to make them, a lot of poses come from some sort of rl photograph. Also, many of us appreciate RL "art" in ANY form - popular, fantasy, fashion, etc. and enjoy recreating it with SL snapshots. I think it is SUPER OBVIOUS when you look through flickr, which ideas were original, and which were meant to be the photographer's view on something existing. Bringing up Minnu's 7 sins pictorial is so far from the subject. YES she needed skills to make those pictures- she had to make a lot to recreate them. Thora needed building skills to design the sets. What about photoshop skills? An eye for angles? Eye for details? Do me a favor if you really want to debate the topic further (on a post that was created to give a pov about the Danae/ Minnu case- not this) Go look through most of the ads you see for designers- I can promise you (as for a few of them I have 100% direct knowledge) that these are inspired by RL pictures- and I use that word bc they weren't sourced, stolen, etc. It takes skill to recreate and edit- have poses made, etc. I can drop sooooooooo (times 100) names that I recognize their clothes, but even more so- photographs that are replicated from RL. I own rl outfits that I also own in SL. You all are taking this way too far by bringing that up in here. There is a difference from photosourcing or using someones files- then taking a RL picture and trying to see if you have the skills to pull it off in cartoon form. I don't need educated about why some artists can get away with mentioning credits and some can't. I know that the few of you in here that continue to speak about this topic HAVEN'T specified your inspiration in RL. And I know you have done it. So can we all stop all this arguing already?

camilla said...

An open letter to Minnu Palen by camilla Yosuke


I have been creating clothing and skins for SecondLife™ since a year and a half now, and thanks to the help of some persons, and by putting daily and continued efforts in this work, it has become my only income in RL to sustain a living.
To me it has been an extraordinary chance, as this is now allows me to live from what I always hoped and dreamed of, this is a creative activity, in the computer graphics field.

Part of this is due to my customers, who by their choice of wearing my items, contribute to make this all possible day after day.
Part of this is due to the time I spend on creating my textures and carefully apply them to my work, like any creator does in SL.
Part of this is due to bloggers and magazines, who regularly help displaying my work on a larger scale.

Another part is buisness associations, such as when I am kindly invited to have a presence on another creator's sim. This presence is an opportunity for both parties to promote their names and brands, sometimes it allows to share traffic or sales, sometimes not that much, sometimes its just a way to display a logo on high traffic places. Its just how things work in any market, and I think that to the question "who does it benefit to", the answer is everyone, with a varying balance depending on the situation.

I have been daily monitoring the recent blogs about your issue with Danae Kotsi, and the sense of my presence in the Glam World sim now appears more complicated than it was supposed to be.

I think I can see without doubt that you used parts of her textures and included it in your own work, and all the following thoughts are based on this supposition.

Whether you are or are not guilty of content theft is not something I would allow myself to decide. This is a problem between you and her, and the justice if any of you want to take it into court.
Obviously Danae Kotsi was not aware that you used her work as a source, and I perfectly understand that she can be upset about it, when she stated, maybe not with enough legal precision words, that she expects a written request to use it for redistribution.
My opinion is that you probably misunderstood the licence of Danae's texture package, and find yourself in a very uncomfortable situtation now.
Some designers will use merchant ressources combined with photographies, some will use photographies only, some will hand draw...etc... I myself use only fully licenced photographic sources for skins, and if I scanned and photographied fabric in the past for texturing lingerie, I force myself to hand draw them now, excepted for parts that have no special pattern, like a leather panel, a sewing .... I do use some licencied 3d generated or hand drawn material textures for little parts like buttons or such, but would it be an eyebrow, a nail, or a lip ( again, licenced ...) texture, if it is really good, I would use it aswel and put all my efforts to include it as flawlessly as possible in a skin texture.
Don't take me wrong, I don't think this has to be with if a designer is a 'good designer' or not, what is important in the end is providing a good final product, promoting it good, try to satisfy customers, keep all that in a legal frame, and with respect with other graphists work.

Again, the legal aspect is not mine to decide. The quality of the graphic work, and particularly the quality of the promoting and advertising, are things you have proofed to master. What is embarrassing me now, is that a growing amount of people begin to think that you made the mistake not to ask permission to Danae for the use of her work, and sadly I have to agree with that opinion, and that people who have a presence at Glam World are supporting this mistake, which is an opinion that I totally disagree with. I have some shops in places where I feel good, and some in places where I totally dislike or disagree with how the owners manage their buisnesses, it doesn't make that I 'support' them. It makes that I benefit from their traffic, and that they benefit from my content to enrich their places. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing an ethical or moral point of view, it has to do with the cold reality of needing visibility in a tense market.

Anyway, when my presence on your sim was meant to bring ourselves a mutual benefit in terms of public image, it turns out at reading the different blogs, and some IM's I have had, that my side of the association is slowly but surely turning bad, and I have to regret that I will remove my store from there, as a way to put an end to the growing public idea that I could be involved in this issue , or that I would support choices that are only yours, other than having had a commercial and cordial association.

I sincerely hope that you and Danae will find an arrangement to this story, that you will understand my point and not take for a personal offense that I publish this letter in both Tenshi and Telsa's blogs before people start to imagine and write fantasy things about my choice.

regards,
camilla Yosuke

anon designer said...

The point was brought up to illustrate Minnu's pattern of copying others work, Im sorry if you dont like that but when someone does it 1 time and then says oops sorry I made a mistake it is one thing. To do it repeatedly and to continue to deny it is another and illustrates that their is a pattern and reflects their ethics.

As an artist who makes a living creating art both in SL and in real life I dont see any reason not to continue bringing these things up when she seems to have no regard for other artists rights and continues to profit from them.

You seem to feel that because its SL real life ethics and business practices do not apply. I think so far the conversation here has been pretty civil discussing this and if it bothers you so to see people discussing it then dont participate. The fact that people are continuing to do so shows there are some very strong feelings about this and we are trying to stand up for the original artists rights.

Yes creating copies of others work does require a fair degree of technical skill, that does not always translate or equal to a great artist. When I see repeated copying with no remorse or taking responsibility when your called on it then it cause me and many others to question your entire body of work as no longer do I have confidence as to what is original and what is not. This is a direct result of Minnu's actions and if you or she doesnt like it then change the behavior thats has caused it.

When others continue to support and defend this behavior it makes me pause about my business associations with them.

It makes me think do we share the same idea on ethics and do I want to support and be affiliated with this? Will my businss be hurt by this? Those answers will vary from one person to another and they will make the decisions appropriate for them. Is this not we are supposed to do? Otherwise what are the repercussions of behavior that a community does not feel is acceptable.

I along as many other designers here am grateful for the opportunity to voice my thoughts and opinions here. I feel that it has provided a venue for civil discussion so that the designer community does not have to stand silent as some here wish for us to do.

Miabella said...

I have to say that I do understand and support the last two posts, my statement was more in reguards to those pointing fingers while participating in the same actions (as far as photography) ... however, I do realize that the original idea was brought up because of the repetition. For some of us, this is even harder than those that might share retail space. It is hurtful just as much. I'm one of those types of people that gets burned over and over bc I believe in giving the benefit of doubt. I give ppl chance after chance, and often this is what consumes my RL and SL regret list. For now I've kept my posts on any blog in relation to trying to do this fair. I havent discouraged anyone from offering their views or comments on the situation. My post here was more to show that its unfair to point fingers hypocritically, or to drag innocent ppl (or their work) into the mud. I'm sure by being friends, or an employee of Minnu, we are going to have repercussions. It would be stupid to think we wouldn't. The world doesn't work that way. I just ask ppl to try and remain fair when bringing other ppl into the subject at hand, and remember that this was as much of a shock to us as anyone else. The whole situation is sad & I know I wish a few things would have happened differently. I can't change the past- I just hope that everyone realizes this isn't a platform to smash ppl, or hold a burn session just for the sake of it all.

Caliah Lyon said...

At Glam all the photographers have completely free rein over the editorials they produce. That the Seven Sins set was not credited was simply assuming that people would be familiar enough with the original to see this as a tribute rather than a flat-out copy. Maybe we erred in assuming that (I had guessed we might elicit some controversy in allowing that) but let me tackle the issue of "borrowing":

Fashion and advertising photography has "borrowed" from both classic and contemporary art for a long, long time. And no, they do not necessarily require familiarity with the material from their audience for their photos to work, nor do they assume this. It would be reaching to say that some of these photographers were secretly hoping to evade the notice of people who did know - more likely they are hoping for the inspiration for their photographs to be recognised. Plagiarism seems more of an issue when a similar photo is made to emulate another photo. I think this article sums it up well:

Can Photographers Be Plagiarists?
http://www.slate.com/id/2159172/slideshow/2159215/

An example of emulating popular rather than classic art, in one of my favourite editorials:
http://jpeterso.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/inspiration-found-the-blood-show/

(other fashion editorials have been made to evoke the work of similar contemporary artists, like Audrey Kawasaki)

Judging from the comments, permission was not asked from the artist, nor was any mention made in the magazine of Ryden, as the stylist and photographer judged it too obvious to pass up. The point of such editorials is to show how close they can get in reproducing art in this form; some introduce original elements, others do not. The point is that the reader "in the know" will be delighted to recognise the work in the photograph. That this sort of common practise in fashion photography is being marred by bickering over "copying" is a little dismaying, but as that Annie Leibowitz article demonstrated, nothing new in the art world.

Now, if you want to press the issue further on copying from photographs, I say you should look to pose makers. They may not copy the entirety of a photograph, but by this argument they could be accused of plagiarism as well.

Just weighing in on the issue with what I hope is food for thought. If people are willing to be so judgemental about the copying issue, I see no problem in specifying the original in the credits as a precaution, though it does somewhat ruin the enjoyment of guessing. The point is that the magazine did not intend to pass this shoot off as original, but it could be easily construed as such.

Anonymous said...

The most disrespectful thing of all? Those skins are still for sale! Put them back up if/when there is a decision of guilt or innocence. This is some serious HUBRIS on the part of the Glam camp. It's a deliberate attempt to continue to capitalize on those who don't read blogs. Whomever is advising Ms. Palen needs to get another job.

kristianne matfield said...

Tesla, I think you got right to the crux of the issue. While yes, there is a legal issue at play that will only be decided in time and most likely with the aide of a court, the questions go beyond that.

I have always said, from the beginning of the "Minnu is copying" posts about Alexander McQueen that it's less about the fact that I think she broke the LAW and more about the moral implications of someone who has been so very vocal about content theft failing to offer credit to a fellow artist. I'm less concerned by the terminology placed on the action - borrowed, stole, inspired, copied, reused - and more by the hypocrisy I see demonstrated by someone who has been so vocal about these things in the past.

The fact that she puts in a notecard distributed with her own skins in SL that any attempt to create a skin that resembles her designs will be met with legal consequence shows that she does understand the difference between originality and copying but somehow doesn't recognize that the same rules apply to her.

There has been a lot of hoopla about vendettas and the motivations behind exposing this issue that I think is simply an attempt to sidestep the issue. The fact is, people do hold a designer like Minnu to a higher standard. She, as you said, went on a very public campaign against content theft and artistic integrity which, regardless of whether or not she was hoping to be, made her somewhat of a voice for designers - big and small - who were struggling with just such a problem. She stated, before any controversy ever arose, that her motivation was to expose SL residents to a higher degree of fashion, a higher degree of realistic runway and couture fashion, actually. By publicizing her stores in such a manner, she again encouraged the public to look at her in a certain light. And when someone at that level behaves in a way that is contrary to the image portrayed, there are repercussions.

What I find even more disheartening and frustrating is that there really isn't any doubt that she's a talented and creative person. The photography that she produces is truly beautiful and I've been in awe of some of her work before. So if she's capable of producing some of the things she has, why can't she put that talent to use in her own way?

Regarding the final bit about designers on the Glam World sims and whether or not it's fair for them to be targeted... I guess I have to ask, why wouldn't they be targeted? It's a very similar group of designers who banned together AGAINST content theft and had no issue with supporting one another at that time. It's also the same group of designers who struggle daily with content theft of their own. In fact, one of the designers still on the sim who has had to battle a doozy of a content theft issue actually left a major public event several months ago because someone on stage was wearing a dress purchased unknowingly from a store this designer has found her stolen designs in. This designer also asked other high profile designers to leave the event as well in support of her cause - and that was all because a model was wearing a dress whose history she was unfamiliar with - an unintentional mistake.

It's a small community and one that bans together for a variety of reasons and I can see why the public would be raising their brows at their failure to do so in this instance, as well.

Do I personally believe those designers should all pull out? No, I actually don't. But I do think an acknowledgment of the issue with an explanation of why they're choosing to stay and what they will do should this case go further would help eliminate some of the questioning.

Finally, Mia, you also deserve a bit of commendation for admitting that this was shocking and hard to swallow for you. I do feel that some of Minnu's staff and the staff at Glam World are getting a bit of an unfair shake because of where they work. I don't fault any of you for sticking by your boss and your friend or waiting for a final decision before choosing to act. But it's a relief for me at least, to hear some humanness in your statement that you were shocked and hurt by what's happened. It's honest and believable. It's the statements from people saying they don't see any similarities in the skins that I just can't choke down.

Nicky Ree said...

Dear kristianne matfield

The "Designer" and event you mentioned don't happen to be the Ms Universe contest? if I believe right I didn't ask anyone to leave... I left myself to my workroom to handle IMs and msgs.

As to the silence of many designers, I cannot answer from them, but I have talked to Tesla on a couple of occasions and I told her I am very against content theft, but I have not looked into the Minnu matter or drama blogs - as I have been very busy with my new releases for the Spring Ball.

But rest assured I am researching now and will form my own views and decisions in my own time.

Hypatia Callisto said...

Tesla said "I made my copy theft posters with honest intentions to stop the spread of copy theft in SL. It's a real shame when dishonesty, greed, and pride UNDO much of the hardwork that people have put in to build a crime free future in SL. I'm deeply saddened :("

Yeah, it was really STARTING to go somewhere, to hit the public consciousness that its not a good thing to do, to harm the little artists in SL who don't have deep pockets to fight. Well now... people can rightfully think that well, who knows maybe that person stole it too, we have no way of knowing for sure so WTF I'll buy it if i like it where I see it and who cares"

And LL and others in a similar position are more than likely just going to leave it that way, thinking the very same thing much of the time. So yeah. I really don't care if Minnu sourced. If she had been honest about sourcing, I'd have not cared one bit and this drama would have never been.

Everyone has sourced at some point or another. That isn't really an issue to me. Not understanding the license is an issue that affects me not at all - I never bought anything from Minnu and don't know her personally. This is all an issue that I find immaterial to other designers, not my business, and something to be hashed out between the parties involved.

I consider much of what I do to be historical illustration/recreation in SL with my own twist on it, rather than "original fashion design" - but when we spend hours on sculpted prim designs, skins, textures, clothes and the like and see them RIPPED, go all over SL, SLX and the like - you betcha we don't like this Minnu situation one bit, 'cause it HURTS US.

Our issues have been turned into a joke, and it infuriates me. Yeah, it DOES. When I see people I know and RESPECT like Cel Edman and Aminom Marvin suffering from this plague, and knowing they are the kinds of people who are *really hurt by this*, that's why my back is up. Just so y'all know what direction I'm coming from.

Annyka Bekkers said...

Mia, you're right to call me on my comments and I apologise. I have no room to talk, since i hired you to shoot ads for me which are a takeoff on Bluefly.com's "Nothing to wear" campaign. So I'm no angel myself.

For what it's worth, I think the Seven Sins pictorial is really a non-issue. Honestly, I was responding to the idea that Marta Dahlig is some kind of a household name, which she's not. But then, she IS very well-known across most of the digital art communities, so chances are that most SL content creators would have come across her work somewhere. So I'll humbly retract my comment. And for what its worth, Minnu's pictorial WAS very well done.

elysium eilde said...

@ Miabella
You are absolutely right. There is ONE image on my flickr that has been totally appropriated from someplace else and I did not credit the original.

When you approached me earlier today about my own infraction, I wasn't sure what you were referring to, so you passed this link to me http://www.flickr.com/photos/ely_eilde/1995475071/ Wow I had totally forgotten all about doing that. You are right, that was a set YOU decided to replicate based on this Vogue cover http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/NrllAless/blog/news/vogue-worlds-next-top-models.jpg . You had all the poses made and even the skirts, a lot of work did go into it. It was a pleasure to shoot with you and process my own interpretation of.

I'd like to express my apologies for misrepresenting the idea as mine. The original appeared on the cover of Vogue in, I think, May of '07. Poses, direction and set under the creative direction of Miabella Foxley.

See, what I did just there? Went back and apologized for a mistake I made? It was easy too, and helps clear the air.

anon designer said...

To assume that all people in sl or those reading the magazine are familiar with the original artist is a pretty broad assumption, a number of people I asked were not. If your involved in creating digital art then yes many are familiar with her but that is not the larger percentage of the demographic participating in SL.

I do not find it fun when I see an artist's work used with no mention and then later passing it off as an homage when called on it.

Did you read this article you posted in its entirety?
http://www.slate.com/id/2159172/slideshow/2159215/fs/0//entry/2159214/

"Andy Warhol, for instance, was sued in 1966 by Patricia Caulfield, a photographer who recognized her magazine shot of hibiscus flowers in a Warhol series. He eventually settled out of court and paid off Caulfield "

"A panel of appeals court judges saw something else: a copy done in bad faith, primarily to make money. Koons settled in 1992 for an undisclosed sum."

Just because artists have done this the does not make it ok, if your going to do an homage then do so in an appropriate manner.

I am sure if someone was emmulating one of your designs then later said it was an homage you would have something different to say. The fact that Minnu has said no one can make anything simliar to her work flys in the face of the argument you make. If thats where she sets the bar then she needs to follow it as well.


It seems to be an issue of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Caliah Lyon said...

Yes, and ms...anonymous designer? if you'd read through to the end of the article, the author concludes that accusations of plagiarism in art are iffy at best, given that art will always bear the marks of its predecessors, in the end, and that the law has evolved to reflect the changing times. Go back and read it again, please. It went so far as to recall that the photographer who'd initially filed the plagiarism complaint was called a "whiner." While I do not share this sentiment, the point of the article (and the point that it is regularly done in fashion photography in tribute to artists) seems to have been lost on you.

You seem to also have ignored my original statement: "that we may have erred" in assuming people would recognise the source. I would also give your opinion more weight if you had the courage to use your own name.

Do I prefer that the photographers in the magazine make such "inspired" shoots? No. If it were solely up to me all shoots would be original, or appropriate only such elements that fashion or art enthusiasts might be pleased or excited to notice how cleverly they were incorporated. But the point of that, again, would be lost on you.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Anonymous said...

@ Elysium and Annyka I find it funny that you guys were so quick to take a moral high ground when in fact you're not so clean yourself. So yeah although it was fine to go back and retract your comment and apologize I wonder if you would have been so quick to do that had it not been pointed out on a public forum.I am not close to either parties in this hot mess but I must say that I am so glad to be surrounded by all the "squeaky clean people" here. I wish we lived in the same neighborhood irl, because then I can keep my doors unlocked. Tesla did nothing new than Tenshi hasn't already done, I don't see why all the designers need to make a statement or make their views public, like do we really need to keep hashing this out? It's been beaten to death, can we just wait for the postmortem? Let's talk about what we can do to help the earthquake victims in China or the cyclone victims in Myanmar and oh here's an idea while we're at that let's solve world hunger.

anon designer said...

Wow seems like to have touched a nerve. I did reread it again, the changes in the law the article where in regards to parody and fair use. The author further states that most do not reproduce works shot for shot.

As to him calling the artist a whiner there have been some on the various blogs that have said negative things about Danae for speaking up to protect what she feels are her rights. Does that make her a whiner too?

I did not miss you statement I stated that I felt your assumption was wrong and that it does not reflect SL's population hopefully in future that will be a consideration.

Clever art work and incoporating elements that intrigue the viewer are wonderful. Marta's work is such and I continue to support "her" work as well as others.

The point was not lost on me but I am not in glam worlds employment.

http://www.jamesshuggins.com/h/oth1/parody.htm

Copyright law Section 107 provides that "the fair use of a copyrighted work . . . for purposes such as criticism [or] comment . . . is not an infringement . . . ,''. But it requires a case-by-case analysis rather than "bright-line rules".

The U. S. Supreme Court decision in 1994 regarding 2 Live Crew's parody of Roy Orbison's song Pretty Woman was a major ruling in this area. The court established that parody is a defense against copyright infringement claims.

In the case of Trademarks, the law provides some statutory "fair use" protection. But, because it is so narrow, the courts have added three additional categories: (1) nominative, (2) comparitive advertising and (3) parody.

The following article provides more information on while not comprehensive provides more information on some of an artists rights. You will notice that at the bottom the article references recent cases where the courts ruled in favor of the original artist.

http://www.illustratorspartnership.org/01_topics/article.php?searchterm=00101

"Both Romm and Mistretta leave one with the inescapable conclusion that if an artist today tries to imitate another's style or look, serious legal repercussions may follow. The consequences may include being sued for both copyright and trademark infringement, and for high monetary damages brought by an artist who believes his or her style was "stolen." The law permits actions which seek punitive damages for cases of willful and intentional violations"

Anonymous said...

Not going to comment on the MM skin but I totally agree on what you said in your para:-

"Understand that a creator's work is like their child. They spend countless hours nurturing that child, watching it grow, and having pride in their offspring. If someone were to take that child and butcher them into pieces and make a Frankenstein monster from it, how do you think that would make the original creator feel? Once again, this is not about laws etc... It is about respect for another creator; the kind of respect that can only be fully understood when one has worked just as hard to create an original piece."

I wish all thief and copycats will hear this and feel about this. But thief is thief, with their LOW EDUCATIONAL BEHAVIOR and their IMMORALISM, do you think they will understand?

Caliah Lyon said...

Err \Err\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Erred; p. pr. & vb. n. Erring
(?; 277, 85).]
2. To deviate from the true course; to miss the thing aimed
at. ``My jealous aim might err.'' --Shak.

3. To miss intellectual truth; to fall into error; to mistake
in judgment or opinion; to be mistaken.

Quote from previous: It went so far as to recall that the photographer who'd initially filed the plagiarism complaint was called a "whiner." While I do not share this sentiment....

Anon designer, ff you had really understood my statement, I don't think you'd have felt compelled to repeat what I'd just said as a point of contention. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Tesla Miles said...

Anonymous said...

"Let's talk about what we can do to help the earthquake victims in China or the cyclone victims in Myanmar and oh here's an idea while we're at that let's solve world hunger."


Anonymous, there are other forums if you want to discuss those topics.

If you want to solve world hunger, you have to get to the root of the problem, and if you look at world history, the root of the problem usually has to do with theft, greed and lack of respect for other human beings. So why don't we start here?

Caliah Lyon said...

Re: my last comment, to make everything more clear regarding fashion photography and its borrowing:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04EEDD143AF930A25751C1A96E958260

"Mario Sorrenti, whose Obsession advertisements with Kate Moss once launched a thousand waifs, shot Moss again in ads for Yves Saint Laurent based on works like Manet's ''Dejeuner sur l'Herbe.'' Steven Meisel has used Renaissance paintings as the basis for the current Versace campaign. And David Seidner, whose homage to John Singer Sargent is featured in the November issue of Vanity Fair, created his first old masters shoot in 1994, for this magazine. Seidner, who in one breath called a well-known photographer who poaches a ''pastiche artist,'' acknowledged in the other that Sargent was guilty of the same.

Appropriating imagery from art has a long history. Manet borrowed heavily from Titian. Balthus modeled his painting ''The Turkish Room'' on Ingres's ''Turkish Bath.'' But photography has always been a poor relation to painting, and some of this pilfering is also about appropriating an artwork's prestige. ''It's come full circle,'' said Ingrid Sischy, the editor of Interview magazine. ''at the beginning of the century, lots of photographers created work that was painterly in order to show that photography was an equal citizen in the world of art.''

Here, the photographer Thom Jackson steals a few poses, some light and the backgrounds from Balthus, who is believed by some critics to be the world's greatest living painter. Unlike so many of the old masters now being copied to sell clothes, at least Balthus won't have to roll over in his grave at the tribute.

Akzidenz Grotesk -- A sturdy, ''no frills'' workhorse, it appeared in 19th-century ads and publicity copy and inspired the Helvetica face in the 1950's."'

(Though Meisel's Versace photos are some of my favourites and the first I liked from him, and the article I originally linked on plagiarism concluded that it was iffy as best, as I said, I do not personally favour imitation or "inspired photography" in general. I hope that made the point more clear for you. Most photos of this sort are a "knowing wink" at an audience familiar with the genre, but in cases such as this one, the proper credits given to the original may help point this out).

Hypatia Callisto said...

"If you want to solve world hunger, you have to get to the root of the problem, and if you look at world history, the root of the problem usually has to do with theft, greed and lack of respect for other human beings. So why don't we start here?"

grins, its also an economic problem! Well, theft is an economic problem!

People are starving not due to lack of food, but of lack of distribution, which is generally a breakdown in their economies, social structure, and the rule of law, which would have under normal circumstances made the flow of goods accessible to them.

No, no, Mr/Ms. anonymous, you really don't want me to start pontificating on economics. And yes, Tesla is so right - its so related to this very topic now!

Let's talk about it, then. Like, those poor digital artists who risk going hungry because of their livelihoods being ripped off from them, and a certain copyright campaign that cheapened the issues that steal the bread from their tables. Lets talk about how expensive lawsuits are for them, especially going after people who live in different countries, who are next to impossible to sue. It's enough to make a lot of people stop creating and like, getting a job with a real company making 3d art. Who will have far more money to make their disapproval known, having appropriated all the rights originally belonging to the artists that work for them under contract.

And yes, a side effect of this is the artist can't follow their bliss so easily to create their own visions, they have no control over their own work. Because they have to like, not starve, and do work to put the bread down on the table. And there's no other better way.

If they cant do it via their SL content biz they have to do it some other way... and we'll be the poorer for it. Do we really want SL to have the reputation of being a den of thieves, where you can't survive financially unless you band together as a corporate pack? I certainly don't that kind of world... look at the record companies for examples of how that one turned out...

Tesla Miles said...

Caliah, while I appreciate the history lesson, this is a topic for somewhere else. No doubt that throughout history artists have borrowed ideas from others, there isn't such a thing as 100% originality. While imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, not all artists see it that way. If you really want to find out what Marta Dahlig thinks about someone using her ideas, why don't you contact her about it?

Caliah Lyon said...

My point was, Tesla, that the anonymous designer wasn't getting my point, and I felt I needed to illustrate that. The above wasn't a defense of the use of Marta's ideas. I felt that she simply did not understand the point I was making about appropriation in fashion photography. She's entitled to clarify her position, why shouldn't I? oO

Anonymous said...

Just a thought:
All people have such huge impulse for self preservation. When faces with danger, one tends to save themselves. Especially when you see that your empire is on fire , all you could think of is to extinguish the fire or salvage what's left of it. But of course there is no such thing as burying the issue and people will talk about it. Which is what we do now.

Caliah Lyon said...

cont. - I was trying to discuss this in a more academic manner as my previous reply as a little heated at what seemed a very badly worded reply on this anonymous person's part - to me it read as being a little dismissive, but which I now think is a matter of the writer possibly being an ESL speaker. I only sought to clarify my point with what I thought would be a reasonable excerpt. I'm sorry if you think this is misplaced, and I apologise if I come across strongly, but that post was not meant to be argumentative, merely in the interest of getting my point across (I have sent you an IM in-world to clarify this).

Hypatia Callisto said...

I certainly don't WANT that kind of world... my universe for an edit button :)

anyway, yes, I think its a bit dishonest (well, MORE than a bit) to for some to claim here that Minnu may have merely been mistaken about the license, when she claimed the work as her own, threatening anyone who copied her.

Assuming she was mistaken does NOT change the crux of the issue for other designers, if you have used sourced material, sorry, but you just don't get that kind of exclusivity, you've got a NON-exclusive license to use the work you bought on Renderosity. Frankly, Minnu never had the right to pursue infringement on her Generation 4 skins, as the pictures make clear as day - she doesn't hold the copyright. Just plain fact. Even if she turns out to have had the right to use them.

So yes. I speak for those Second Life artists (not just fashion) who deserve an apology for misrepresentation in a public copyright campaign, damaging the public image of the spirit of what copyright was supposed to be about - protecting the creative work of artists. Instead all I see are excuses and FUD from friends in an effort to obfuscate the issues where this affected other Second Life artists, and no word from the artist herself. Nothing changes, the works remain for sale, no apology, no contrition - just excuses, defiance, and from some quarters, insults and threats.

Copyright these days is getting eroded more and more to protect the companies artists work for and publish through, rather than protecting the artists themselves. So I have a pretty negative feeling about the situation, one that's justified IMO.

Georgette Whitfield said...

You summed up my thoughts on the matter exactly, Tes. Thank you. I only hope Maitreya does not suffer loss of sales through this whole fiasco.

elysium eilde said...

Anon-
Before you come down on me, please make sure you know the entire story (oh, just like everyone has been asking people to wait for judgement for the full story about the MMS/Danae thing.) I posted one image to flickr several month ago of a photo I took of a shoot that Miabella put together. At the time, I was linking everyone who saw it to the original and never claiming it as my idea. So yes it is true, I never attributed the original on my flickr post, but I was linking everyone I showed this photo to to the original. (ha and at the time, last November, no one ever looked at my damn flickr anyway!)

HOWEVER, It would seem, my point was lost on you, the point being that I was called out on a mistake (which i had completely even forgot that I shot until Mia reminded me) and said I was sorry...which is all some people were asking Minnu to do.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am the first to try to attempt to correct a legitimate mistake, whether in a public forum or privately. As you post as Anon, I don't know if you know me, so, lol, if it makes you feel better to crucify me for one minor infraction than to admit the multiple instances where this had been done by one of the most successful businesses in SL, go ahead, I won't take it personally.

Oh and before it comes up, my "Ely's Fight Club" set was inspired by the movie "Fight Club" in case I hadn't made that obvious.

As for Annyka, as her photos were never completed and published, you all have no way of knowing if she intended to attribute the idea to the original or not, so please don't crucify her either.

Anonymous said...

Another designer here. One big let down that annoys me about the whole thing is the skins still being for sale atm. I think out of respect for her current and any future customers she should have pulled the skins from the store and anounced why and *if* she was later proved innocent she could have had a relaunch and this for me would have given her some kind of integrity and got her much more respect. As it is it shows me that it is more about money than anything else as she seems to be relying on continued income from those who havnt maybe had the ability to know what has been going on with this situation.

I think if i was in Daneas shoes i would have gone a similer route as seeing how respected Minnu has been in SL she would naturally want customers of hers and the general public to know that she believed her work was being used and the huge credit that has been given for the skins were not going to the right person. I would have been more upset finding out about this after the situation was resolved and more ppl hadnt been able to make thier own informed decision as to whether they bought from minnu or not.

Tenshi said...

I had to skip down to the bottom of these comments. I cannot BELIEVE this recent tactic of the Minnu camp - IM'ing commenters in-world in order to privately sway them from their own opinions.

I knew Aradia was doing it with commenters from SCD, how many others are doing it?

Miabella said...

If you are referring to me, Tenshi, I did contact Ely & Anny bc they are friends foremost, and not just another blog poster with an opinion. I wanted them to know why I mentioned their names, and you have my permission to ask either of them if I at anytime tried to sway their opinions on the real discussion about the skins. I prefer to not get into heated fights or arguments in the public eye. I was just shocked to see either of them post about the photography subject. (again, not sure if you are talking about me.. but just in case)
Also, thank you for the apologies, however, not necessary, really appreciated. I LOVE using RL pictures and trying to recreate in SL. It's one of my favorite ways to do photography in SL. Of course I come up with my own pictures, lots in fact. But I also get excited when I can direct a set in SL to mimic something I enjoyed in RL. I never claim that these ideas are original when I do them. I don't always credit the artist either. I never have charged for these types of pictures, nor made any profits from doing them. In fact, I use my own money to get the poses made, and often my own money on any other feature you see. I understand the points you all were trying to make, though. And that building a reputation based off of others peoples work isn't right. (Not saying that Minnu is guilty of this or not- but recognizing the points made)
In regards to the comments about taking merchandise from the stores, I guess thats something Minnu would have to address- seeing as I do not represent her thoughts or opinions on the matter.. however,could it be likely that she has been instructed that it would look like admission by guilt - bc I do know she was torn up about this enough to want to close the sim down initially. And as far as doing it for the money- Minnu doesn't charge rent for stores in her sims, nor does she charge rent for the apts. She doesnt make money from the magazine- in fact, all the money made is either returned into the next issue or to pay the staff of the magazine. She's not as money hungry as she is made out to be, honestly. Anyways, I'm sorry if I came off harsh about the photo subject. I guess I was being defensive bc friends that I care a lot about where on the arguing side. I'm going to leave this as my last comment here. I really just hope that all of this is put to rest soon. Thanks guys for letting me vent.

Anonymous said...

Distract, Deny, Distract, Deny. This is the tactics that we have seen over and over again from the Minnu camp. These are the actions of people who know they are guilty, yet can't bring themselves to admit it. @Caliah. At first I felt sorry for you that you were caught up in this mess but after reading your comments here, I realize you are just another Minnu minion trying to save her perceived "elite" status. I will no longer be shopping in your stores as much as it kills me to say that.

Caliah Lyon said...

Anonymous:

@Caliah. At first I felt sorry for you that you were caught up in this mess but after reading your comments here, I realize you are just another Minnu minion trying to save her perceived "elite" status. I will no longer be shopping in your stores as much as it kills me to say that.


And my earlier post today on another blog was proven correct on how judgemental people are when they don't even know you. Elite status? When I was first asked to become editor for GLAM, did I leap at the chance? No. I was inclined to refuse as I had no idea how I would mesh as an eccentric personality with people I did not know. Anyone who knows me and has read that post knows status is the least of my concerns. I've always walked alone, making my own choices apart from those of others. I saw this as a good opportunity for learning. What pains me most is all the hurt that's being inflicted on both sides, all the judgements being called on people for speaking their minds, and everyone getting dragged into this against their will, not to mention all the hard work so many people put into the magazine. I'll be damned if I'm seen as a sycophant just for trying to express viewpoints on the appropriation issue in a rational manner. Do you know all the opinions I hold on the matter? Would you even care, if I told you what I really thought, and how difficult for me this is? I think not. You'd probably tar me with the same brush as everyone else caught up in this feeding frenzy, which you have done. So much for respect. So much for opinions. So much for listening. But I shouldn't hope for that kind of discourse in a discussion like this, that is my biggest mistake.

And re: iming people in-world, does that apply to apologies, too? If so I'm guilty. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it, all of Minnu's camp (99%) think they're elite. That's why you're "educating" everyone in Second Life with copycat gowns, right? With no attribution?

Caliah, do yourself a favor and just stop talking. The more you comment the more you kick yourself in the arse.

Annyka Bekkers said...

@ Anonymous 10:48:
If you think I'll be goaded into defending myself to you, then you better try a little harder. My reply was for Miabella, since I feel terrible about the distress she's feeling over all of this and I hate to add anything to it.

You, Anonymous Blog Commenter #2,417,834, I could care less about.

This is what I get for allowing myself to get sucked into arguing an irrelevant point about whether or not Marta Fucking Dahlig is universally well-known or not. Who the hell cares about Marta Dahlig?

@Tenshi:
Mia did not do anything even remotely resembling a "tactic". Please stop adding evev more drama to an already way overblown one.

elysium eilde said...

lmao... I am not sure if that was referring to us but...lol...Mia and I know better than to try to sway each other's opinions about anything! :D (and I say that with love and respect, so please don't misinterpret)

Anonymous said...

as a Designer on SL myself I have fallen Victem to Copybots and Copycats using 3ird party programs to Copy Textures of MIne and then Re-upload them and sell Clothing that is a 100% match to my own.

"My Own Thoughts About Minnu Skin Copy"
If and When Minnu is found Guilty of Using the Copywrited Renderocity.com skins and passing them off as her own, then I for 1 will Delete all my MMS generation skins and Basicly Never look back!

Tillie Ariantho said...

Darn, can you all maybe stop this here now?

You are ridiculous, both sides! You just keep bashing.

Better go back inworld and create some content. Minnu should see to it that she creates a Gen-5 skin on her own and replaces the Gen-4 one soon, and the others make sure they are not next at being bashed at.

I wonder who of you is using 'not for sale' prims like the ones from Cel Edman for your builds or using textures you didn't create yourself. I guess the percentage of designers that has NOT used a texture of 'unknown source' is maybe 5%.

Tuli Asturias said...

Please guys, stop finding new victims... It's one thing to speak your mind, it's another to attack people on a personal level because they view things another way. People will always have their own opinions, and you won't be able to force yours onto them by attacking them personally.

I know Caliah and she has a mind all her own, and definately not someone's "minion". I know it took quite some convincing on Glam's part to get her to apply her talents to the magazine. There is no need to attack her personally just for having a different view on matters. Nor a need to attack anyone in such a way for that matter.

Respect the fact that people see things differently. You all got your opinions out there, please stop playing tag bashing... Let's try to be adults and leave it at this. We won't be able to convince eachother, this is all out of control and beyond the mere wish to express an opinion.

We'll all find out at some point what really is going on with Minnu and Danae, and whether we were right or wrong about things.
Let's go on with our SLives for now... love and world peace and all that... FREE HUGS.

Anonymous said...

Witch hunts are based on lies and fabrications. This one is pretty hard to fabricate.

The end result is, this happened, Minnu now has to take responsibility (whatever form that may take) and this has caused quite a split in the SL fashion community.

Wistful said...

I think it would be well to note that there is a massive difference between business ethics and interpersonal ones.

Minnu is a business, she's not your friend who bought the same outfit she well knew you were wearing to the Prom, and as such, it is unfair for you to judge her by those standards. This is a matter of law, because the EULA and other so called copyrighting of the Rendorosity product is not clear.

Neither your nor I are in a position to interpret this or come to any conclusions as to whether or not Minnu is right in law. And, dear readers, that's the only thing that matters in business. You can wax lyrical all you want, it makes no difference.

I really don't want to spend too much time going over if there is a case or there isn't - because none of us know and time will tell.

That said, the manner in which people have been behaving over this matter, makes one wonder if this armchair moral outrage is rather misguided.


I have said this to many people and I will say it to all of you: The manner in which you live your SL does not govern the manner in which others do.

Yours is not the moral yardstick by which others should be judged.

Consequently, you should consider the following:

1. Demanding that people condemn Minnu or that businesses leave the Sim may be seen as bullying. (Don't tell people how to run their business.)
2. Calling people elite because they strive for perfection or they take pride in what they do may have more to do with your lack of self esteem than their arrogance.
3. Judging people before trial is lynch mob behaviour.
4. The zeal in which people rush to be negative and quote hearsay as fact makes one wonder how any of us can ever say we are well balanced people.

I say: Calm down, turn all this obvious energy to something positive and let's go out and feel good about ourselves.

The Minnu issue is not about you - don't make it so.

"Practise random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty" Anne Herbert - San Francisco 1982

Anonymous said...

I am the anon who was told by the owner of the blog that I can go elsewhere when I made my suggestion that there are other important things to worry about than beating this Minnu horse to death. Wistful I have to stand and applaud you. I could never in a million say it as well as you did. Thank you for that. Thank you so much.

Tesla Miles said...

Let's try to stick to the topic please...

Since some people have clearly not read my original article, I'll be deleting their off-topic comments.

And it IS about ethics, not about law - If the government is unethical and corrupt then so is their law.

I don't believe money should ever come before the welfare of fellow humans, the animals and plantlife of our planet.

We start by changing the world, by changing the way we think. It is TOTALLY about ethics.

Tesla Miles said...

Here is a link to an interview with Danae Kotsi.

http://www.renderosity.com/news.php?viewStory=12123

As you can see, she is not a 2-bit artist who uses Mickey Mouse tools. She uses 3D Studio Max and Photoshop at a very proficient level.

She even talks about content protection too.

A real artist, who is passionate about their work, and passionate about their community. Why can't more designers in SL be like her?

anon designer said...

The law and changes in the law are made by the actions of people. If behavior is deemed unethical by the community they have every right to speak to keep speaking.

Business practices do not change if you do not as as a customer let that business know that their practices and ethics are not acceptable to you.

The ethics that Minnu has displayed are not acceptable to me and many others.

If others continue to support and defend her while she behaves in this manner as a consumer I have every right to not do business with them either and tell them why.

Its pretty simple "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Tesla Miles said...

Comments closed.